H.264/H.265 vs ProRes on MacBook Pro M3 Pro/Max

Hello, I am new to video-editing and DaVinci Resolve. (Actually, until I choose a new computer, I won't have any hands-on experience with DR.)

I am looking to buy a new MacBook Pro laptop - because I need a mobile solution - and I see a handful of threads on here claiming that M3 chips are having lots of issues with compressed video files and DaVinci Resolve. (I guess the term is "media offline".)

It seems like the more I research this topic, the more confused I get - 50% of people say there are no issues with M3 Pro or M3 Max chips on MacBook pro, and the other 50% say there is.

One thing I have picked up online is that editing in ProRes seems to solve a lot, if not all, video-editing issues.

So I am wondering if simply shooting video in ProRes - whether on a mirrorless or an iPhone - is the "solution" to all of the issues people complain about with the M3 chipsets?

Also, if you have video that is already in H.264 or H.265, would converting the files to ProRes before editing in DaVinci Resolve also solve these issues?

Am eager to buy a new laptop so I can finally start learning DaVinci Resolve and get into serious video-editing, but first I could use come help choosing the right hardware, because nothing would be worse than spending $5,000 and having a non-working laptop!

Does your camera shoot ProRes internally?

Are you ready to deal with the file sizes?

Apple Prores is a really good codec. H264/5 are smaller files but require more processing power to decode the Long-GOP format.
I would always shoot Prores if possible but H264 files edit just fine on my setup.

ProRes and H.265 with high data rates in log (like in the iPhone, which can record up to 40 MB/s), can be very similar quality-wise.
But I think Martin want's to know if the specific problems with M3 (maybe only Max) under Sonoma reported by some, can be avoided with ProRes. It would be very kind if someone with such a machine could report about this.

Does your camera shoot ProRes internally?

Are you ready to deal with the file sizes?

My current set up, no.

But I am looking to buy a Sony a7S iii and an iPhone 15 Pro Max in the near future, and they both shoot in ProRes and ProRes RAW from my understanding.

I guess I am willing to deal with larger file sizes if it makes editing easier and by-passes any of the issues other posters have had with their M3 Pro and M3 Max chips. That, I hear editing in H.264 and H.265 can be an issue in general, and I don't want to experience that with a new computer.

The Sony doesn't shoot ProRes (neither ProRes RAW) internally. It can do it with an additional recorder, which will make it even more expensive and more bulky. If you are sure you want ProRes, a camera by Blackmagic might be the better solution.
Neither H.264 nor H.265 are a problem any more with a current Mac, even for DR free, or a PC with the needed decoders by Intel and DR Studio.
You need to know that H.265 doesn't pose any problems on M1 and M2 machines. There have been some, yet unconfirmed, reports of issues with M3 Max , and maybe M3 Pro too.

Nikon has ProRes Raw in both the Z8 and Z9. Can't remember if non raw is included. Shows how much I use ProRes. The file sizes aren't worth it.


The 265 is easy enough to edit on my 11th gen PC. That's three generations old now.

Nikon has ProRes Raw in both the Z8 and Z9. Can't remember if non raw is included. Shows how much I use ProRes. The file sizes aren't worth it.


The 265 is easy enough to edit on my 11th gen PC. That's three generations old now.

I updated the title of this thread to stress that I am asking for 14" MacBook Pro's running either an M3 Pro or M3 Max chip.

The Sony doesn't shoot ProRes (neither ProRes RAW) internally. It can do it with an additional recorder, which will make it even more expensive and more bulky.

Okay.

If you are sure you want ProRes, a camera by Blackmagic might be the better solution.

Okay.

Neither H.264 nor H.265 are a problem any more with a current Mac, even for DR free, or a PC with the needed decoders by Intel and DR Studio.

You need to know that H.265 doesn't pose any problems on M1 and M2 machines. There have been some, yet unconfirmed, reports of issues with M3 Max , and maybe M3 Pro too.

Yeah, that is why I started this thread - concerns about a new MacBook Pro with either an M3 Pro or M3 Max chipset not working out.

The more I research the more confused I get, because 50% say there are issues, and 50% say there are no issues.

It seems that if you EDIT in ProRes, that DaVinci Resolve should work great on an M3 Pro or M3 Max laptop.

And, of course, if you CAPTURE in ProRes, then editing would also go smoothly.

But in order to switch to ProRes means a lot more responsibility (and cost), and so I am asking the experts thoughts on this.

And yet another option is to CAPTURE in H.264 or H.265 and then TRANSFORM into ProRes, so that editing on an M3 Pro or M3 Max is easier, but the tradeoff, I hear, is that transforming files leads to data-loss, which maybe defeats the purpose of converting things to ProRes before editing?

It seems that if you EDIT in ProRes, that DaVinci Resolve should work great on an M3 Pro or M3 Max laptop.

And yet another option is to CAPTURE in H.264 or H.265 and then TRANSFORM into ProRes, so that editing on an M3 Pro or M3 Max is easier, but the tradeoff, I hear, is that transforming files leads to data-loss, which maybe defeats the purpose of converting things to ProRes before editing?

Not really. Transcoding a GOP codec into another one means quality loss. Transcoding H.265 into ProRes 422 HQ will not result in any visible loss of quality. You'll only need space. The process is also very fast, close to the speed of the storage used, since all recent Macs have hardware for encoding (and decoding) of ProRes too.
So, your idea of working around the issue by transcoding to ProRes until the underlying problem is sorted out, is a valid one in my eyes. I have not yet seen a report about any issue with ProRes on M3 Pro or Max, other than the alpha channel one coming from ffmpeg. That one seems to have been sorted out as not being Apple's or BM's problem.

Regarding cameras, if your main purpose is filming (not photography), did you have a close look at the FX3? It's very similar in IQ to the A7S III, but it has a fan. While I couldn't reproduce overheating when testing the A7S III with the right settings, we can't exclude sample variation. So, with the FX3, you will be on the safe side.

On the PC I get media offline if it's on an external drive that wasn't turned on before starting Resolve.

Are the people on the Mac having problems with internal or external files? If it's externals it could just be a timing issue. The drive is sleeping when Resolve is started.

Uli,

It seems that if you EDIT in ProRes, that DaVinci Resolve should work great on an M3 Pro or M3 Max laptop.

And yet another option is to CAPTURE in H.264 or H.265 and then TRANSFORM into ProRes, so that editing on an M3 Pro or M3 Max is easier, but the tradeoff, I hear, is that transforming files leads to data-loss, which maybe defeats the purpose of converting things to ProRes before editing?

Not really. Transcoding a GOP codec into another one means quality loss. Transcoding H.265 into ProRes 422 HQ will not result in any visible loss of quality. You'll only need space. The process is also very fast, close to the speed of the storage used, since all recent Macs have hardware for encoding (and decoding) of ProRes too.

I am confused by your response... (Disclaimer: I have so much to learn!)

You seem to be saying that H.264 is a "Long GOP" (i.e. Long Group-of-Pictures") but that H.265 is not?

:-/

As I have went down a thousand rabbit-holes trying to learn all of these video concepts, I have briefly read some articles and the difference between "Long GOP" and "All Intra".

Q1.) Is the concept of "Long GOP" and "All Intra" part of the CODECs themselves?

Q2.) Is the concept of "Long GOP" and "All Intra" something separate from a CODEC?

Q3.) Can a given CODEC, offer BOTH "Long GOP" and "All Intra"?

Q4.) Is "Long GOP" and "All Intra" universal, or does it vary from CODEC-to-CODEC or possibly camera manufacturer to camera manufacturer?

Q5.) Why is it harder to TRANSCODE from H.264 to ProRes than from H.265 (which is much more compressed) to ProRes?

So, your idea of working around the issue by transcoding to ProRes until the underlying problem is sorted out, is a valid one in my eyes. I have not yet seen a report about any issue with ProRes on M3 Pro or Max, other than the alpha channel one coming from ffmpeg. That one seems to have been sorted out as not being Apple's or BM's problem.

Well, since getting a mirrorless camera is currently out of my budget - with having to also buy a new MacBook Pro, I will likely get stuck shooting video with a new iPhone 15 Pro Max.

Now sure how the ProRes on an iPhone 15 Pro Max relates to the comments and questions above, but hopefully it is a more affordable way to get into ProRes, and maybe provide a temporary work-around IF there are any issues with a new M3 Pro or M3 Max that I will be buying?

Regarding cameras, if your main purpose is filming (not photography), did you have a close look at the FX3? It's very similar in IQ to the A7S III, but it has a fan.

I spent about two weeks watching what felt like over 100 hours on YouTube about mirrorless camera and specifically about all of the supposed over-heating issues that mirrorless camera have - especially the Sony a7S iii.

Similar to my confusion about buying a new 14" MacBook Pro M3 Pro/Max, the more I researched the more confusing things got.

50% of the Internet says the Sony a7S iii is nearly un-usable for video over 30 minutes, and the other 50% of the Internet says that isn't so.

A LOT of people claim even with all the right settings, the a7S iii craps out after 30 minutes.

In the end, I went with recommendations from a couple of YouTubers that I trust more (e.g. Gerald Undone), and the **hope** is that I can shoot interviews outside in the sun and some heat for at least up to an hour.

Like the M3, I think the only way to know is to try things out in real life.

I DID also research the F3, and I don't recall the specifics, but I ruled it out as not as good and capable as the Sony a7S iii. (Would have to go re-watch a lot of videos to tell you why, but I stand by that decision.)

THIS may be another reason why upgrading my iPhone from an iPhone 11 Pro Max to an iPhone 15 Pro max might be a good investment... 1.) It would save me $$$, 2.) I could shoot ProRes if I want to, and 3.) I presumably would nearly never have overheating issues. Of course the trade-off is that I don't have full control of exposure, and don't have a "normal" lens. But progress comes in steps, I suppose?

While I couldn't reproduce overheating when testing the A7S III with the right settings, we can't exclude sample variation. So, with the FX3, you will be on the safe side.

Yeah, I sure hope when I get a Sony a7S iii that it doesn't disappoint, because it seems like a superior mirrorless camera for what I want to do which is extended interviews and documentary work, with all of the convenient features of a "prosumer" mirrorless camera.

(Are the Blackmagic Design "gods" (fixed type-o) going to stone me for saying that in a BMD forum?!) :-O

On the PC I get media offline if it's on an external drive that wasn't turned on before starting Resolve.

Are the people on the Mac having problems with internal or external files? If it's externals it could just be a timing issue. The drive is sleeping when Resolve is started.

Good question, and only having skimmed the threads on this topic in the BMD forums, I'm not sure.

(I also wonder if it could be simple hardware issues like not enough RAM, a bad cable, a low-quality external drive, Sonoma not playing nice with external drives, etc.)

I have heard that one should NEVER edit video files on their internal drive - is that true? And if so, why?

Hi Marty,

I have been using DR since v12 on Windows workstations, but about 6 months ago I changed to a Mac Pro. I also have an IT background, and we have a relatively large network for a small office, with approximately 30TB of storage available spread across multiple servers. I have experienced the "offline" issues with both Windows and Mac, but sadly it is much more prevalent on the Mac. However this is a networking issue and the video file format has only a small contribution to the problem.

In every case, the offline problem impacts files that are not stored locally on the computer. When the file is transferred to local storage it doesn't happen. The problem with Macs is the insane cost of disks encourages people to use network storage, and I have found the Mac's networking capabilities to be very disappointing to be polite. The Mac is far less forgiving with network issues than Windows. For example I would stop for lunch and when I came back to the Mac all the files that were OK before lunch would now be offline. I knew exactly what the networking problem was, but even after an hour on the phone with Apple Techs we couldn't find a workaround. I ended up writing a script that, in simple terms, kept prodding the network drives to keep the connection alive and most of those issues have disappeared.

File types do have small influence though, and this is due to the processing required to display the video. ProRes and raw files have enough data that each frame can be displayed as the frame arrives. Compressed files e.g. H.264 do not and you need the entire GOP to get all the information so the computer needs to receive several frames before it can display one. In theory, if you are playing forward this isn't a problem as the compression algorithm has all the info it needs from the previous frames, and when you just play a compressed file you don't have this issue. For some reason when you load such files into editors, this theory doesn't hold up. Hence I have had many more offline issues with H.265 files than with BRAW, which is the opposite of what I was expecting.

This would also explain why some people have issues and others don't - it gets down to the network/external storage rather then the file type.

That's my 2c worth.

Darryl

Q1.) Is the concept of "Long GOP" and "All Intra" part of the CODECs themselves?

Q2.) Is the concept of "Long GOP" and "All Intra" something separate from a CODEC?

Q3.) Can a given CODEC, offer BOTH "Long GOP" and "All Intra"?

Q4.) Is "Long GOP" and "All Intra" universal, or does it vary from CODEC-to-CODEC or possibly camera manufacturer to camera manufacturer?

It is an option. The most flexible CODECs offer both an all-intra and an inter-frame setting. Some CODEC exclusively are all-intra and some are inter-frame only. Even when the CODEC offers a setting if may not be available/exposed in a particular implementation of the CODEC.

ProRes is all-intra only while H.264 and H.265 (as well as H.266) and AV1 offer both options.

As I have went down a thousand rabbit-holes trying to learn all of these video concepts, I have briefly read some articles and the difference between "Long GOP" and "All Intra".

Q1.) Is the concept of "Long GOP" and "All Intra" part of the CODECs themselves?

Q2.) Is the concept of "Long GOP" and "All Intra" something separate from a CODEC?

Q3.) Can a given CODEC, offer BOTH "Long GOP" and "All Intra"?

Q4.) Is "Long GOP" and "All Intra" universal, or does it vary from CODEC-to-CODEC or possibly camera manufacturer to camera manufacturer?

Q5.) Why is it harder to TRANSCODE from H.264 to ProRes than from H.265 (which is much more compressed) to ProRes?

It's not inherent to the codec, both H.264 and H.265 also allow All-Intra encoding and some cameras offer it, under their brand names like XAVC-I (Sony). Actually, the length of GOPs is also very flexible, so we should clarify by simply writing GOP or All-Intra. But with natural imagery from a camera sensor, usually GOP codecs are far more efficient. So, to get the same quality in All-Intra, the data rates should be considerably higher. They are not always, and that's what varies from one camera manufacturer to the next, as does the range of options offered. You can also have options like 8 bit vs. 10 bit and 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 in a camera.

Many other codecs are always Intra-only, like ProRes, DNxHD/HR etc. , but always use higher data rates and consequently need more space.

Q5: Who told you so? In pure software, H.265 is harder to decode than H.264, and in theory the All-I version should be easier in the computer. But with those modern hardware decoders, like Intel QS or Apple silicon, it doesn't really matter any more. And then, H.265 is about 30% more efficient regarding visual quality for the same settings. So, much more compressed is relative.

Well, since getting a mirrorless camera is currently out of my budget - with having to also buy a new MacBook Pro, I will likely get stuck shooting video with a new iPhone 15 Pro Max.

Now sure how the ProRes on an iPhone 15 Pro Max relates to the comments and questions above, but hopefully it is a more affordable way to get into ProRes, and maybe provide a temporary work-around IF there are any issues with a new M3 Pro or M3 Max that I will be buying?

Absolutely. Check out all the discussions about it around here, it's a capable little device. It can also shoot H.265, but unfortunately with the BM app the data rate is too low, IMHO. But if you contact me by PM, I can recommend you an alternative app with a very small user group, that should not be mentioned here, not to wake up Voldemort. That one can record HEVC in Apple log with data rates higher than most Sony cameras, but still saving space over ProRes.

So, you get full flexibility with an iPhone regarding codecs. BTW, the 15 Pro (non Max) would also suffice. Some like it better than the Max for video, since it has a 3x lens, nice for portrait, while the 5x on the Max is pretty long handheld.

50% of the Internet says the Sony a7S iii is nearly un-usable for video over 30 minutes, and the other 50% of the Internet says that isn't so.

Well, that can be sample variation. Or the users who say it overheats didn't find the secret menu entry to allow higher temperatures. I have been shooting long interviews in the heat (but no direct sun), and a Sony 6400 overheated after 15 minutes, while my A7IV didn't (with that switch set to high). I also keep my monitor folded out, not on the back.

THIS may be another reason why upgrading my iPhone from an iPhone 11 Pro Max to an iPhone 15 Pro max might be a good investment... 1.) It would save me $$$, 2.) I could shoot ProRes if I want to, and 3.) I presumably would nearly never have overheating issues. Of course the trade-off is that I don't have full control of exposure, and don't have a "normal" lens.

An iPhone can also overheat. You'll need to keep it out of a protective case and not attach a SSD in the heat, then it lasts. Who says that you don't have full control of exposure? And what do you mean by a 'normal' lens? It has a 50mm equivalent.

Yeah, I sure hope when I get a Sony a7S iii that it doesn't disappoint, because it seems like a superior mirrorless camera for what I want to do which is extended interviews and documentary work, with all of the convenient features of a "prosumer" mirrorless camera.

(Are the Blackmagic Design goods going to stone me for saying that in a BMD forum?!) :-O

Well, other cameras get discussed all the time around here, from Nikons or Sonys to Venice or Alexa.
There is only one little app for the iPhone that can not be discussed, or the self-appointed watchdog will attack you.

I have heard that one should NEVER edit video files on their internal drive - is that true? And if so, why?

That's a complex issue. In a desktop, you can use internal drives to your advantage.
In a laptop with only one SSD, I would not suggest it.
First of all, Apple's prices are much higher per byte than any decent external SSD, and for the codecs you want to edit they'll offer plenty enough speed. So, why waste money.
Second, you never want to fill your system SSD to the rim, or the whole system can crash. Well, not really with recent Apple systems, since they protect the system area.
Finally, video files are huge, and constantly reading and writing them will sooner or later wear down your SSD. They all have a limited lifetime, even if those are a lot of terabytes:
https://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/ ... -ssd-work/
That doesn't mean that you can't work on the system SSD in a pinch. But better not all the time, since again, external ones are cheaper to replace.

I have a 16" M3 Max with 36GB ram. I exclusively use H.265 (HEVC) files shot on iPhone (I know I'm a heathen) and have not had an issue at all with a couple of hundred hours of video sources. Just adding this FWIW. I have an older 27" iMac that I really don't use for DR but when I have, that hasn't given me any issues while using the same codec. You can always return the Mac after 2 weeks if it doesn't work out for you. Just test the heck out of it while you have it in that time window.

Darryl,

I have been using DR since v12 on Windows workstations, but about 6 months ago I changed to a Mac Pro. I also have an IT background, and we have a relatively large network for a small office, with approximately 30TB of storage available spread across multiple servers. I have experienced the "offline" issues with both Windows and Mac, but sadly it is much more prevalent on the Mac. However this is a networking issue and the video file format has only a small contribution to the problem.

In every case, the offline problem impacts files that are not stored locally on the computer. When the file is transferred to local storage it doesn't happen.

Hmmm... very interesting!

The problem with Macs is the insane cost of disks encourages people to use network storage, and I have found the Mac's networking capabilities to be very disappointing to be polite.

So a lot of people online say that you should NOT work on your local drive when using DaVinci Resolve.

Yet you seem to be saying that SHOULD ALWAYS work off your internal drive.

Fwiw, I agree that Apple's internal storage is quite expensive, but I will be getting a 4TB SSD on my next MacBook Pro, positively because I always need lots of storage - even without video.

The Mac is far less forgiving with network issues than Windows. For example I would stop for lunch and when I came back to the Mac all the files that were OK before lunch would now be offline. I knew exactly what the networking problem was, but even after an hour on the phone with Apple Techs we couldn't find a workaround. I ended up writing a script that, in simple terms, kept prodding the network drives to keep the connection alive and most of those issues have disappeared.

There used to be an app called "Caffeine" that was supposed to keep your Mac awake.

Would that work?

And so what would you recommend as far as internal/external drives.

Even before I decided to learn DaVinci Resolve, it was almost an industry standard to use a "scratch drive" for things like Photoshop. And it seems that vast MAJORITY of people say you absolutely need one or more external drives to use DaVinci Resolve.

In fact - sorry I have been away a few days and my memory is foggy - but some implied that you could damage - or at least corrupt - your Mac if you didn't use external drives while editing.

Since I will have 4TB of internal SSD, I should be okay with "elbow room" on my internal drive for a few years. But is having an additional good-quality external drive an asset or a liability?

File types do have small influence though, and this is due to the processing required to display the video. ProRes and raw files have enough data that each frame can be displayed as the frame arrives.

So "intra-frame" codec, right?

Compressed files e.g. H.264 do not and you need the entire GOP to get all the information so the computer needs to receive several frames before it can display one. In theory, if you are playing forward this isn't a problem as the compression algorithm has all the info it needs from the previous frames, and when you just play a compressed file you don't have this issue. For some reason when you load such files into editors, this theory doesn't hold up. Hence I have had many more offline issues with H.265 files than with BRAW, which is the opposite of what I was expecting.

So shooting in RAW or ProRes, OR transcoding into ProRes should address this issue?

BTW, if you get a "media offline" error, what exactly does that mean?

Can you just "refresh" things and everything is back to normal?

Is is this more like your network or connection goes down during a download or system backup, and you end up permanently losing data?

This would also explain why some people have issues and others don't - it gets down to the network/external storage rather than the file type.

So if you buy the most modern, and best quality external drives, is this a non-issue?

Or will any external drive and protocol (e.g. PATA, SATA, SATA III, NAND, etc) have issues because of "Mac's networking capabilities to be very disappointing to be polite"?

That's my 2c worth.

Darryl

Thank you! This is definitely the first time I have comes across this point-of-view?

Can anyone back up what Darryl is saying?

Thanks,


Marty

Cary,

It is an option. The most flexible CODECs offer both an all-intra and an inter-frame setting. Some CODEC exclusively are all-intra and some are inter-frame only. Even when the CODEC offers a setting if may not be available/exposed in a particular implementation of the CODEC.

ProRes is all-intra only while H.264 and H.265 (as well as H.266) and AV1 offer both options.

Among CODEC's that are available on most major manufacturers, and not specific to a particular camera like RED...

1.) Which CODECs do you think are the best to shoot in?

2.) Which CODED's are best to edit in on a MacBook Pro?

3.) What are you general thoughts about ProRes?

Thanks,


Marty

1.) Which CODECs do you think are the best to shoot in?

It depends, it comes down to a tradeoff between availability, efficiency, and storage. If storage is not an issue use an all-intra option with the highest possible bitrate. The best in terms of modern compression techniques is H.265 (AV1 and H.266 are better but it will take time for them to become available in cameras and recorders). Avoid H.264 altogether, it is an old and obsolete CODEC for new recordings.

2.) Which CODEC's are best to edit in on a MacBook Pro?

The most important option is to have all-intra compression. Interframe compression is not practical for editing on a laptop. ProRes would be the obvious choice.

3.) What are your general thoughts about ProRes?

ProRes is an old and simple but solid CODEC. The compression is not very impressive so you would want to use high bitrates.

Uli,

It's not inherent to the codec, both H.264 and H.265 also allow All-Intra encoding and some cameras offer it, under their brand names like XAVC-I (Sony).

Is there a way to dissect a video file, and know...

- Which CODEC it uses?

- Does it use Inter-frame (GOP) or Intra-frame?

- If it is GOP, how "long" is it?

Actually, the length of GOPs is also very flexible, so we should clarify by simply writing GOP or All-Intra. But with natural imagery from a camera sensor, usually GOP codecs are far more efficient. So, to get the same quality in All-Intra, the data rates should be considerably higher. They are not always, and that's what varies from one camera manufacturer to the next, as does the range of options offered.

When you say, "the data rates should be considerably higher", what do you mean??

(When I think of "data rates", I think of things like the transfer rate from your computer to an external drive.)

You can also have options like 8 bit vs. 10 bit

"Bit depth", right?

and 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 in a camera.

"Chroma sub-sampling rate", right?

Many other codecs are always Intra-only, like ProRes, DNxHD/HR etc. , but always use higher data rates and consequently need more space.

This implies that you need a "faster camera" to be able to effectively and efficiently process CODEC's like ProRes, right?

Will an iPhone 15 Pro Max fit-the-bill on this?

What about the Sony a7S iii?

Q5.) Why is it harder to TRANSCODE from H.264 to ProRes than from H.265 (which is much more compressed) to ProRes?

Q5: Who told you so?

Well, you said, "Transcoding H.265 into ProRes 422 HQ will not result in any visible loss of quality."

I thought maybe that implied H.264 was harder to transcode than H.265.

Since H.265 is significantly more compressed than H.264, I believe, one would assume that transcoding H.264 would be a little easier than transcoding H.265.

In pure software, H.265 is harder to decode than H.264, and in theory the All-I version should be easier in the computer. But with those modern hardware decoders, like Intel QS or Apple silicon, it doesn't really matter any more. And then, H.265 is about 30% more efficient regarding visual quality for the same settings. So, much more compressed is relative.

You seem to be saying that shooting in H.265 makes more sense because it is so much more efficient as a GOP CODEC, than shooting with a CODEC that is using All-Intra?

To me, I see H.264 - and especially H.265 - as equivalent to the debate about shooting photos in JPEG vs say TIFF.

Well, since getting a mirrorless camera is currently out of my budget - with having to also buy a new MacBook Pro, I will likely get stuck shooting video with a new iPhone 15 Pro Max.

Now sure how the ProRes on an iPhone 15 Pro Max relates to the comments and questions above, but hopefully it is a more affordable way to get into ProRes, and maybe provide a temporary work-around IF there are any issues with a new M3 Pro or M3 Max that I will be buying?

Absolutely. Check out all the discussions about it around here, it's a capable little device. It can also shoot H.265, but unfortunately with the BM app the data rate is too low, IMHO.

Aaaah... Yet another topic I need to research!

If I shoot in ProRes on a new iPhone 15 Pro max, could I use the Blackmagic app and get the full benefits out of both the ProRes CODEC, plus out of the Blackmagic app itself?

But if you contact me by PM, I can recommend you an alternative app with a very small user group, that should not be mentioned here, not to wake up Voldemort.

Will do!

That one can record HEVC in Apple log with data rates higher than most Sony cameras, but still saving space over ProRes.

You lost me there....

HEVC = H.265

What is "Apple log"?

And how does it relate to H.265?

You are saying that on an iPhone 15 Pro Max - using the mystery app - it allows the iPhone to record at a higher data rate than a Sony camera can record using ______ CODEC?

So, you get full flexibility with an iPhone regarding codecs. BTW, the 15 Pro (non Max) would also suffice. Some like it better than the Max for video, since it has a 3x lens, nice for portrait, while the 5x on the Max is pretty long handheld.

You can't shoot at 3X zoom on an iPhone 15 Pro Max?

50% of the Internet says the Sony a7S iii is nearly un-usable for video over 30 minutes, and the other 50% of the Internet says that isn't so.

Well, that can be sample variation. Or the users who say it overheats didn't find the secret menu entry to allow higher temperatures. I have been shooting long interviews in the heat (but no direct sun), and a Sony 6400 overheated after 15 minutes, while my A7IV didn't (with that switch set to high). I also keep my monitor folded out, not on the back.

A lot of people claim they set their Sony a7S iii to "high temperature" mode, folded out the screen, and so on and it still overheated in 15-30 minutes.

One YouTuber - who comes across as really smug - posted some super long videos about how the a7S iii failed.

(Sometimes I wonder if people post "disinformation" just to cause confusion?)

THIS may be another reason why upgrading my iPhone from an iPhone 11 Pro Max to an iPhone 15 Pro max might be a good investment... 1.) It would save me $$$, 2.) I could shoot ProRes if I want to, and 3.) I presumably would nearly never have overheating issues. Of course the trade-off is that I don't have full control of exposure, and don't have a "normal" lens.

An iPhone can also overheat. You'll need to keep it out of a protective case and not attach a SSD in the heat, then it lasts.

My iPhone 11 Pro Max overheated maybe once or twice when it was in direct 100 degree sun, but other than that, I can easily shoot for 8 hours and it never blinks.

Who says that you don't have full control of exposure?

You can NOT set 1.) Aperture, 2.) Shutter-speed, and 3.) ISO on any iPhone, thus you do NOT have full-control of exposure!!

And what do you mean by a 'normal' lens? It has a 50mm equivalent.

I have never seen a photo (or video) from any smartphone that didn't have a FISHEYE effect to it.

(I wonder if the world realizes that it is seeing a world through photos/videos that do not fully represent reality?!)

Anytime I have seen side-by-side comparison to a selfie or proper portrait taken between a smartphone and a "proper" studio lens on a REAL camera, there is no comparison.

Yeah, I sure hope when I get a Sony a7S iii that it doesn't disappoint, because it seems like a superior mirrorless camera for what I want to do which is extended interviews and documentary work, with all of the convenient features of a "prosumer" mirrorless camera.

(Are the Blackmagic Design goods going to stone me for saying that in a BMD forum?!) :-O

Well, other cameras get discussed all the time around here, from Nikons or Sonys to Venice or Alexa.

There is only one little app for the iPhone that can not be discussed, or the self-appointed watchdog will attack you.

Thanks for the warning!! *LOL*

And thanks, as always, for your help Uli!!

Sincerely,


Marty

The hardware decode issue you seem to be referring to appears to be specific to DaVinci Resolve. I don't know how widespread these issues are and whether they have been fixed but they surely will be if not yet.

Howver, maybe not what you expect to hear on a BMD forum, but you could probably resolve your worries at this point by starting your video editing journey with Final Cut Pro (FCP) instead and graduate to Resolve at a later point. The learning curve with FCP is a lot shallower than with Resolve and it is made for Mac. I've not heard of any decoding or media offline issues with M3 Macs and FCP. ProRes and H.265 run and render with ease.

Just make sure you get a Mac with plenty of memory and all should be well.

I have heard that one should NEVER edit video files on their internal drive - is that true? And if so, why?

That's a complex issue.

In a desktop, you can use internal drives to your advantage.

In a laptop with only one SSD, I would not suggest it.

First of all, Apple's prices are much higher per byte than any decent external SSD, and for the codecs you want to edit they'll offer plenty enough speed. So, why waste money.

Oops, you lost me here...

Uli said, "for the codecs you want to edit they'll offer plenty enough speed. So, why waste money."

I guess you meant, "for the codecs you want to edit, EXTERNAL DRIVES offer plenty enough speed, so why waste the money?"

If you are recommending an external drive, then which one(s)?

For example...

1.) Which drive technology (e.g. NOR, NAND, 3-D NAND, etc)?
2.) Which Interface (e.g. SATA III)?
3.) Form-factor (2.5", SD, microSD, etc)?

Second, you never want to fill your system SSD to the rim, or the whole system can crash. Well, not really with recent Apple systems, since they protect the system area.

Agreed, as a hard-drive approaches 90% capacity, you can definetly start having flaky OS and application issues.

Finally, video files are huge, and constantly reading and writing them will sooner or later wear down your SSD.

Okay, this is a point that I didn't consider, and that makes sense!!

They all have a limited lifetime, even if those are a lot of terabytes:
https://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/ ... -ssd-work/
That doesn't mean that you can't work on the system SSD in a pinch. But better not all the time, since again, external ones are cheaper to replace.

Very good point!!

I will go farther and say that you CANNOT replace a failed internal drive anymore on Macs - you either need a new logic board or a new computer!

So how do I balance your advice of "Do NOT use your internal drive to edit-video" to Darryl's observations above that - Macs don't do very well with networking and external drives and therefore it might be better to use your internal drive to edit video??

Sincerely,


Marty

I have a 16" M3 Max with 36GB ram. I exclusively use H.265 (HEVC) files shot on iPhone (I know I'm a heathen) and have not had an issue at all with a couple of hundred hours of video sources. Just adding this FWIW. I have an older 27" iMac that I really don't use for DR but when I have, that hasn't given me any issues while using the same codec. You can always return the Mac after 2 weeks if it doesn't work out for you. Just test the heck out of it while you have it in that time window.

That is good to know, although I'm not sure how that equates to the experience Id have with a 14" MBP.

FWIW, I took Uli's advice and went to my local Apple store last week and had a guy demo a 14" MBP M3 Pro with 16GB of RAM, and a 16" MBP M3 Max with 48GB RAM and we ran Cinebench 2024 on both.

Each laptop was silent during the test, and had about the same heat on the underside.

I was impressed at how quite the 14" M3 Pro was, and just wish I had a better sense of how the 14" M3 Max would pan out - although if I had to guess, I think a 14" M3 Max would be a safe risk if you were concerned about fan noise.

Thanks,


Marty

So how do I balance your advice of "Do NOT use your internal drive to edit-video" to Darryl's observations above that - Macs don't do very well with networking and external drives and therefore it might be better to use your internal drive to edit video??

Sincerely,

Marty

I'm not sure what Darryl means in fact in relation to external drives. Macs do very well with external SSDs and they don't need to be ultrafast to edit video.The sensible advice, and I know Uli agrees as we have discussed this often here, is prioritise memory over internal storage when purchasing. If money is not an issue then max out internal storage but otherwise go for 1TB (max 2TB) and buy external SSDs as working drives for editing. Use USB drives for storage.

1.) Which CODECs do you think are the best to shoot in?

It depends, it comes down to a tradeoff between availability, efficiency, and storage. If storage is not an issue use an all-intra option with the highest possible bitrate.

Can anyone recommend which setting on a Sony a7S iii would match what Cary is suggesting? (It seems like Sony offers almost too many choices for newbies!)

The best in terms of modern compression techniques is H.265 (AV1 and H.266 are better but it will take time for them to become available in cameras and recorders).

So if I don't shoot RAW or ProRes, then there is no problem shooting in H.265 *IF* I can also get All-Intra?

Avoid H.264 altogether, it is an old and obsolete CODEC for new recordings.

Good to know.


BTW, does your advice also hold up on iPhones?

For example, I currently have an iPhone 11 Pro Max which I guess by default shoots in H.264? And there is an option to shoot in HEVC (i.e. H.265), but I have no clue how many bits either footage would be in, or if it is GOP or All-Intra.

Likewise, if I get a new iPhone 15 Pro Max, is there still the same benefits you allude to above, or is H.265 not the same on an iPhone, and thus you'd be better off always shooting ProRes?

2.) Which CODEC's are best to edit in on a MacBook Pro?

The most important option is to have all-intra compression. Interframe compression is not practical for editing on a laptop. ProRes would be the obvious choice.

But if I can get a compressed CODEC (e.g. H.265) with All-Intra included - whetehr on a Sony mirrorless or an iPhone - then that would be okay to edit also?

3.) What are your general thoughts about ProRes?

ProRes is an old and simple but solid CODEC. The compression is not very impressive so you would want to use high bitrates.

Like ProRes, 10-bit 422?

You said that ProRes is an "old" CODEC, is there something better that checks all of the boxes for shooting and editing and compression and quality and space?

Also, as far as transcoding goes...

If I shoot in H.265 GOP and transcode to ProRes, will I lose a lot of data and quality?

If I shoot in H.265 All-Intra and transcode to ProRes, will I lose a lot of data and quality?

Thanks,


Marty

Micks,

The hardware decode issue you seem to be referring to appears to be specific to DaVinci Resolve. I don't know how widespread these issues are and whether they have been fixed but they surely will be if not yet.

At least it isn't a permanent thing.

However, maybe not what you expect to hear on a BMD forum, but you could probably resolve your worries at this point by starting your video editing journey with Final Cut Pro (FCP) instead and graduate to Resolve at a later point. The learning curve with FCP is a lot shallower than with Resolve and it is made for Mac. I've not heard of any decoding or media offline issues with M3 Macs and FCP. ProRes and H.265 run and render with ease.

It is always good to have a "Plan B" and I appreciate your suggestion.

Yes, that makes sense... When I get a new MBP M3, if I start having these "media offline" issues, I could just switch to Final Cut Pro (FCP) and then at least I could edit video while I figure out a solution, or while the powers that be roll out a solution.

Just make sure you get a Mac with plenty of memory and all should be well.

Agreed.

This point is why I am leaning towards getting a 14" MBP M3 Max instead of the M3 Pro. I have always been a big advocate of LOTS of RAM, and it makes me a little uneasy of only being able to get 36GB of RAM on the M3 Pro - video-editing aside.

Still on the fence about all of this, though... :-/

Sincerely,


Marty

Micks,

So how do I balance your advice of "Do NOT use your internal drive to edit-video" to Darryl's observations above that - Macs don't do very well with networking and external drives and therefore it might be better to use your internal drive to edit video??

I'm not sure what Darryl means in fact in relation to external drives. Macs do very well with external SSDs and they don't need to be ultrafast to edit video.

The sensible advice, and I know Uli agrees as we have discussed this often here, is prioritise memory over internal storage when purchasing.

If money is not an issue then max out internal storage but otherwise go for 1TB (max 2TB) and buy external SSDs as working drives for editing. Use USB drives for storage.

Aside from video and video-editing, is there any downside to getting an internal 4TB SSD? (Like are they less reliable or have less lifespan than say a 1TB or 2TB drive?)

For my startup business, I spend half of my day, every day, 7-days-a-week reading the news, researching topics, and saving lots of PDF's of the news and lots of videos from the news and YouTube to create this very elaborate library that I will need for my business.

As mentioned, right now I am at like 1.7 TB on this old rMBP, and I can easily fill up a 4TB internal drive in the next 2-3 years.

Why not store it externally? 1.) Because if I need something, I need it now. 2.) Because having my life on an external drive that could lost or stolen freaks me out.

So, if I take the advice of editing off an external drive, is there any concerns or down-sides to still get a new MBP with a 4TB internal drive for my day-to-day NON-video use?

As far as memory goes, for an M3 Pro, what you think about this configuration?

Option #1:
14" MBP, M3 Pro
12-core CPU
18-core GPU
36GB RAM
4TB drive
US$3,800

And as far as memory goes, for an M3 Max, what are your thoughts on these two configurations...

Option #2:
14" MBP, M3 Max
14-core CPU
30-core GPU
96GB RAM
4TB drive
US$5,000


Option #3
14" MBP, M3 Max
16-core CPU
40-core GPU
64GB RAM
4TB drive
US$4,900


Notes:
a.) I am not made of $$$, HOWEVER, it is better to buy a little more than I needed and throw away $1,000, VERSUS not buying enough, and throwing way $4,000!!

b.) Uli has advised me that you should have - hope I recall this correctly - 2X RAM/GPU's.

c.) If noise and heat won't be an issue, I am sort of leaning towards Option #2 because it clearly has enough RAM to last me in day-to-day work and in video-editing, and maybe in motion graphics for the next 3 years until I am either DEAD or FAMOUS!!

What do you think??

Sincerely,


Marty

P.S. I have already bitten off more than I can chew with starting a business and getting into video and video-editing, BUT another I want to get into ASAP is motion graphics, so I can take my videos to the next level. (Want to do a lot of "explainer" videos like those that made Vox famous.)

Can anyone recommend which setting on a Sony a7S iii would match what Cary is suggesting? (It seems like Sony offers almost too many choices for newbies!)

Looking at the internal recording modes this one seems to be the best quality:
H.265/XAVC HS 4:2:2/4:2:0 10-Bit
UHD 4K (3840 x 2160) at 23.98/50/59.94/100/120 fps [30 to 280 Mb/s VBR]

So if I don't shoot RAW or ProRes, then there is no problem shooting in H.265 *IF* I can also get All-Intra?

Assuming you use sufficient bitrates the only negative of inter-frame recording (as opposed to all-intra) is that an NLE has to do significantly more processing. All-intra H.265 is superior to ProRes because it uses better compression technology. Note though that given sufficient bitrates all CODECs obviously converge to the same quality. So with sufficiently high bitrates the difference is minimal.

I would use H.265 for the iPhone as well.

But if I can get a compressed CODEC (e.g. H.265) with All-Intra included - whetehr on a Sony mirrorless or an iPhone - then that would be okay to edit also?

Absolutely.

You said that ProRes is an "old" CODEC, is there something better that checks all of the boxes for shooting and editing and compression and quality and space?

Well all-intra H.265 is better than ProRes. But again, with sufficiently large bitrates the difference is minimal.

If I shoot in H.265 GOP and transcode to ProRes, will I lose a lot of data and quality?

If I shoot in H.265 All-Intra and transcode to ProRes, will I lose a lot of data and quality?

No. Unlike what many claim inter-frame compression is far more efficient and for the same quality an inter-frame compression needs far fewer bitrates. There are exceptions like imagery that shows fire or water, those are hard to compress inter-frame. But again assuming we are not using encodings with very low bitrates and assuming the encoding was not using fixed bitrates per frame it is a non-issue.

Aside from video and video-editing, is there any downside to getting an internal 4TB SSD? (Like are they less reliable or have less lifespan than say a 1TB or 2TB drive?)

Why not store it externally? 1.) Because if I need something, I need it now. 2.) Because having my life on an external drive that could lost or stolen freaks me out.

I have already bitten off more than I can chew with starting a business and getting into video and video-editing, BUT another I want to get into ASAP is motion graphics, so I can take my videos to the next level.

The thread is long and so is the day here. 64GB should be fine for future proofing for several years I would guess but if you can afford the 96GB then go for that. However, I am not sure what Uli was getting at in relation to not editing off an internal drive. I am not aware of any problem editing on an internal drive and if you can afford 4TB or 8TB then go for it but don't skimp on the memory. External SSDs are so fast now and take a few seconds to mount that there is little inconvenience in using them. And what if your computer gets stolen? You need backups for sure however you do this.

If you are seriously thinking of motion graphics and you have not started yet with video editing, give strong consideration to Motion (Apple's motion graphics app). Motion is a lot lot easier to learn than Resolve's Fusion, again is made for Mac so runs really well and integrates tightly with FCP. It is also cheap - $50 for a perpetual licence. Fusion is by all accounts very demanding on computers.

The downside of a 4TB drive is it'll cost more. Drives are rated by TBW (Total bytes written) . In general larger drives have larger TBW.

But it sounds like you need a backup plan. Sooner or later everything fails.

Also All-I HEVC will give you larger files. Which means you'll need larger cards. More storage. Maybe a faster card reader

If you're worried about overheating after 30 minutes you're going to be dealing with some large files.

On any modern Mac it doesn’t matter any more if you use H.265 (aka HEVC) in GOPs or all Intra, both are decoded by hardware. But to get the same quality for natural images, all Intra should be stored with at least three times the data rate to preserve the same quality. GOPs are simply that much more efficient.
Not all cameras do that, to keep the price of media low. That said, Sony has excellent encoders these days.
And regarding SSDs, if you have lots of money, there’s nothing wrong with internal 4 TB SSDs.
But external ones are far cheaper per GB and easier to replace. And they are small and should fit any bag.

There used to be an app called "Caffeine" that was supposed to keep your Mac awake.

You can "caffeinate" your Mac from the command line in terminal. I found it wasn't quite up to the task so I downloaded Amphetamine to kick it up a notch. Funny guys these coders.

Good Luck

I think Gary has confirmed my points regarding H.265 very well. The Sony you are looking at can record up to 200 mbps in HEVC with GOPs or 500 mbps in HEVC I-frame. Even if I wrote that it should be 3x the GOP rate, that's still enough with good encoders. It already needs really fast and expensive cards.

When do you really need that? If you want to record 4:2:2 in 10 bit with Slog, which will force you into grading. Do you have the time?
If you don't have the time for that, use S-Cinetone in 8 bit and save on cards, space and time. Those cameras (just like a few others) are very flexible when it comes to codec choice and the M* Macs can handle all such flavors of AVC and HEVC.
The iPhone can record HEVC 10 bit in 422 at sufficient data rates (even at tad higher than Sony with secret software). I consider Apple log better than Slog-3 for 10 bit recordings.

Regarding internal SSDs: if you have money to waste, go for 4TB. They won't die faster than 1TB, but if they die, it'll mean a new motherboard. Future proofing in my eyes means keeping the balance, most of all. One example: H.266 and AV1 were mentioned in this thread. Yes, they are good and maybe come to cameras one day. You know what it'll do to your maxed-out Max of today? It'll become slow as molasses with such codecs.

You mentioned that you are just a beginner in video. You know what I'd do in your situation? Get a MBP M2 Pro now, as long as you can find one, which will not force you into Sonoma. Then get an iPhone 15 Pro or Max (I'd choose based on what you like for the long lens) and get going.

If your intended business takes off as you hope, you can always go for the Sony and a top MBP in two years. Macs usually have a pretty good resale value. You will have wasted far less money without experiencing any serious limitations.

And storing your collections of background information? You can use SD camera cards for that, the MBP has the slot, and even make them a kind of organizing tool. Or get any brand SSD.

You mentioned that you are just a beginner in video. You know what I'd do in your situation? Get a MBP M2 Pro now, as long as you can find one, which will not force you into Sonoma.

What are the issues with Sonoma Uli? I've noticed you saying this several times. I've been running Sonoma for ages with no problems that I am aware of on M1 Max MBP.

Well, there have been a few contributions in this forum stating issues with HEVC, in particular from Sony cameras, going offline or showing glitches under Sonoma on Apple M3 Max computers. Plus, quite a few saying they can't get BM's I/O devices working under that MacOS whatever suggestion they follow. It's difficult to say if it's Sonoma, or the M3 Max (or both). Unfortunately I can't test it myself, since I have no M3 around.
But as long as DR is running under Ventura (and 18 even under Monterey), I stick to my principle of not touching a running system. That served me well in over 40 years.

It would be great if somebody with an M3 Max could chime in and test with Sony footage or confirm that an I/O device is running smoothly.

Looking at the internal recording modes this one seems to be the best quality:
H.265/XAVC HS 4:2:2/4:2:0 10-Bit
UHD 4K (3840 x 2160) at 23.98/50/59.94/100/120 fps [30 to 280 Mb/s VBR]

What about shooting with: XAVC S-I 4K

Assuming you use sufficient bitrates the only negative of inter-frame recording (as opposed to all-intra) is that an NLE has to do significantly more processing. All-intra H.265 is superior to ProRes because it uses better compression technology. Note though that given sufficient bitrates all CODECs obviously converge to the same quality. So with sufficiently high bitrates the difference is minimal.

Bit-Rate is not the same as Bit-depth, right?

How do I know what the Bit-Rate is?

When you say H.265 is "superior" to ProRes, what do you mean?

- Superior in file size?

- Superior in quality?

- Superior in ease-of-editing?

But if I can get a compressed CODEC (e.g. H.265) with All-Intra included - whether on a Sony mirrorless or an iPhone - then that would be okay to edit also?

Absolutely.

Does Sony offe rthat in prosumer mirrorless camera? H.265 + All-Intra.

If I shoot in H.265 GOP and transcode to ProRes, will I lose a lot of data and quality?

If I shoot in H.265 All-Intra and transcode to ProRes, will I lose a lot of data and quality?

No. Unlike what many claim inter-frame compression is far more efficient and for the same quality an inter-frame compression needs far fewer bitrates. There are exceptions like imagery that shows fire or water, those are hard to compress inter-frame. But again assuming we are not using encodings with very low bitrates and assuming the encoding was not using fixed bitrates per frame it is a non-issue.

So if I take your advice and shoot in H.264, 10-bit, 422, and my laptop was lagging during editing, then I could transcode to ProRes and NOT lose any quality?

Michael,

The thread is long and so is the day here.

Sorry about that - I am the king of mega-long threads!

64GB should be fine for future proofing for several years I would guess but if you can afford the 96GB then go for that. However, I am not sure what Uli was getting at in relation to not editing off an internal drive. I am not aware of any problem editing on an internal drive and if you can afford 4TB or 8TB then go for it but don't skimp on the memory. External SSDs are so fast now and take a few seconds to mount that there is little inconvenience in using them. And what if your computer gets stolen? You need backups for sure however you do this.

Yes, I understand my laptop is more likely to get stolen. But I just know from experience it is easier than you think to lose or forget a tiny external hard-drive versus forgetting your whole laptop.

Yes, I have multiple backups, and I have backup off-site, and even out-of-state, so I'm good there.

Working off an external drive is an option, just not my preferred work method. (Of course if it saves my internal drive, then I'm open to it.)

If you are seriously thinking of motion graphics and you have not started yet with video editing, give strong consideration to Motion (Apple's motion graphics app). Motion is a lot lot easier to learn than Resolve's Fusion, again is made for Mac so runs really well and integrates tightly with FCP. It is also cheap - $50 for a perpetual licence. Fusion is by all accounts very demanding on computers.

Yet another thread, but briefly, how does Apple's Motion compare to Fusion? (Is it FCP vs DaVinci Resolve, or are they closer in capabilities?)

The downside of a 4TB drive is it'll cost more. Drives are rated by TBW (Total bytes written) . In general larger drives have larger TBW.

I'm okay with that.

But it sounds like you need a backup plan. Sooner or later everything fails.

I try to keep a backup with me, one off-site, and less frequently one out-of-state.

But maybe this would make yet another thread down the road once I am actually shooting.

Also All-I HEVC will give you larger files. Which means you'll need larger cards. More storage. Maybe a faster card reader

If you're worried about overheating after 30 minutes you're going to be dealing with some large files.

Yet another thread...

MAYBE one of the reason that so many people's Sony a7S iii overheat after 30 minutes if because they are shooting H.265? Or maybe it is the All-Intra that is doing it?

Uli,

On any modern Mac it doesn’t matter any more if you use H.265 (aka HEVC) in GOPs or all Intra, both are decoded by hardware.

But to get the same quality for natural images, all Intra should be stored with at least three times the data rate to preserve the same quality. GOPs are simply that much more efficient.

I hear the term "data rate" a lot in this thread. (Pardon the newbie question.)

Have already decided to always shoot in 10-bit, but I guess that is "Bit Depth"?

So how does one choose a higher "Bit Rate"?

Is that a function of the CODEC, or a function of the camera settings?

How would I choose a higher "Bit Rate" on a Sony a7S iii?

And how would I choose a higher "Bit Rate" on an iPhone 15 Pro Max?

Not all cameras do that, to keep the price of media low. That said, Sony has excellent encoders these days.
And regarding SSDs, if you have lots of money, there’s nothing wrong with internal 4 TB SSDs.
But external ones are far cheaper per GB and easier to replace. And they are small and should fit any bag.

I will get a 4TB internal, AND have lots and lots of external drives for shooting and editing and backups.

I think Gary has confirmed my points regarding H.265 very well. The Sony you are looking at can record up to 200 mbps in HEVC with GOPs or 500 mbps in HEVC I-frame. Even if I wrote that it should be 3x the GOP rate, that's still enough with good encoders. It already needs really fast and expensive cards.

When do you really need that? If you want to record 4:2:2 in 10 bit with Slog, which will force you into grading. Do you have the time?

I'm going to start another thread of this very topic sometime...

If you don't have the time for that, use S-Cinetone in 8 bit and save on cards, space and time. Those cameras (just like a few others) are very flexible when it comes to codec choice and the M* Macs can handle all such flavors of AVC and HEVC.

Short answer, doing field journalism and color grading aren't compatible.

The iPhone can record HEVC 10 bit in 422 at sufficient data rates (even at tad higher than Sony with secret software). I consider Apple log better than Slog-3 for 10 bit recordings.

Over my head right now, but okay.

Regarding internal SSDs: if you have money to waste, go for 4TB. They won't die faster than 1TB, but if they die, it'll mean a new motherboard. Future proofing in my eyes means keeping the balance, most of all. One example: H.266 and AV1 were mentioned in this thread. Yes, they are good and maybe come to cameras one day. You know what it'll do to your maxed-out Max of today? It'll become slow as molasses with such codecs.

Understood, and I agree.

But for me, a 4TB will be the "standard" option. I will fill the extra 2TB that I lack today easily in 2-3 years from daily-driver work. (An 8TB internal would be excessive for me for now.)

You mentioned that you are just a beginner in video. You know what I'd do in your situation? Get a MBP M2 Pro now, as long as you can find one, which will not force you into Sonoma. Then get an iPhone 15 Pro or Max (I'd choose based on what you like for the long lens) and get going.

Uli, so are you like the 1 millionth person to tell me that I tend to over-analyze things?

Hey, I'm just about ready to "pull the trigger" after maybe one more paycheck...

If your intended business takes off as you hope, you can always go for the Sony and a top MBP in two years. Macs usually have a pretty good resale value. You will have wasted far less money without experiencing any serious limitations.

I agree with your conclusion on the "camera" (i.e. iPhone 15) - it's pretty easy to ditch the mirrorless idea when the entry-level cost is $6,000-$7,000.

I think we disagree a bit on the MacBook Pro, but as you know, I'm asking lots of questions and considering all angles.

And storing your collections of background information? You can use SD camera cards for that, the MBP has the slot, and even make them a kind of organizing tool. Or get any brand SSD.

In the past, when I've run out of internal storage, it's a MAJOR PITA to realize, "Damn it! That file I need right now is on an external drive at home which is a couple of hours away!"

THAT is why I don't just store day-to-day stuff externally.

Now, for video-editing, that is totally different, and I agree with your comments about wearing out my internal drive prematurely doing all of my video-editing on internal drives.

So, I can see myself editing off an external drive.

But I need my "library" with me at all times. (And considering that I was Feng Shui'ing all weekend, and I have this kick-ass filing system, I definitely need more internal, always accessible, storage at my fingertips!

Well, there have been a few contributions in this forum stating issues with HEVC, in particular from Sony cameras, going offline or showing glitches under Sonoma on Apple M3 Max computers. Plus, quite a few saying they can't get BM's I/O devices working under that MacOS whatever suggestion they follow. It's difficult to say if it's Sonoma, or the M3 Max (or both). Unfortunately I can't test it myself, since I have no M3 around.
But as long as DR is running under Ventura (and 18 even under Monterey), I stick to my principle of not touching a running system. That served me well in over 40 years.

It would be great if somebody with an M3 Max could chime in and test with Sony footage or confirm that an I/O device is running smoothly.

OK I've seen some of those threads but it's not clear what is happening and how widespread the problems are, what codecs and cameras are affected and whether it is the M3 chip or something else entirely. One of the threads mentions Panasonc as well as Sony.

I don't dive in to a new OS for a few months after release but I think Sonoma is pretty stable by now overall in my little universe.

I have heard that one should NEVER edit video files on their internal drive - is that true? And if so, why?

That's a complex issue. In a desktop, you can use internal drives to your advantage.
In a laptop with only one SSD, I would not suggest it.
First of all, Apple's prices are much higher per byte than any decent external SSD, and for the codecs you want to edit they'll offer plenty enough speed. So, why waste money.
Second, you never want to fill your system SSD to the rim, or the whole system can crash. Well, not really with recent Apple systems, since they protect the system area.
Finally, video files are huge, and constantly reading and writing them will sooner or later wear down your SSD. They all have a limited lifetime, even if those are a lot of terabytes:
https://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/ ... -ssd-work/
That doesn't mean that you can't work on the system SSD in a pinch. But better not all the time, since again, external ones are cheaper to replace.

I can chime in with my day-to-day setup, where 500-700GB is typically used for general purpose on my internal MacBook 14 Pro M1 Pro and various external Thunderbolt disks for actual "project use".

External Thunderbolt 4 drives can also be connected to ordinary USB-C/A connections provided power delivery is up to the task, Old "standard" USB 3 ports typically only support up to 5V, 0.9A (4.5W peak), modern ports between 1.5 and 2.4 A typical max, but all Thunderbolt connections living ups to the standard are able to supply 15W (5V/3A) according to standard requirements.

Please acknowledge, that I do NOT recommend, that you buy any specific piece of hardware. I concentrate on hardware, that I have selected for purely personal use, for my use cases (local and travel aka reportage or run-and-gun) in my setup.

My setup in daily use

Macbook 14 Pro M1 Pro
1TB SSD 16GB Memorty 10 CPU/16GPU
System SSD mainly used for system tasks and standard apps only.
Always part of hourly Time Machine backups
Content in the folder “Ignore” always excluded.

Project oriented
All projects are folder oriented. All material included in a project is placed somewhere inside the main folder, named according the same rules. Example: “20240219 Singapore 2024” in the main “Projects” directory (which may have subgroups like “Youtube”, “Blakcmagic”, “Twitter” etc. holding targeted content. Using the European “YYYYMMDD context” notation keeps folders auto sorted (compared to the US notation “YYYYDDMM context”). All projects are moved to NAS as "one whole unit", when finished, and are - of course - included in the standard NAS backup routines.

Ignore folder
All SSD’s have a folder called “Ignore”. That folder holds data, temporary, copies, scratch), that should never be part of any backup, and therefore is always excluded. Having a folder with the same purpose on all media, makes it easier in daily use. I do not have to check, if this, that or the other disk may or may not be part of daily or hourly backups. Ignore folders never are.

Thunderbolt 4 980Pro2TB
Samsung 980 Pro 2TB SSD
All active general projects are held in the folder “Projects”.
Complete disk content is part of hourly Time Machine backkups (except the folder “Ignore”)
Connected directly to main computer.

Disk reviewed here (one of several reviews with similar results): https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sa ... ssd-review
Sustained sequential write: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sa ... d-review/4

All extra connections are via a Thunderbolt 4 hub handling up to four 10-GBit USB connections (4TB backup SSD, 2.5GBit ethernet adapter, two audio interfaces) and up to three Thunderbolt 4 connections (Thunderbolt 4 Work SDD and a Thunderbolt 3 Work SSD plus monitor connection) Backed up regularly and as necessary to NAS.

USB C 10 GBit 4TB SSD
USB-C 10 GBit Samsung T7 Shield 4TB
Contains all current and hourly TimeMachine backups (excluding “Ignore” folder) for system SSD and external project SSD,

Disk reviewed here (one of several reviews with similar results): https://www.anandtech.com/show/18734/sa ... ty-upgrade
Sustained sequential write: https://www.anandtech.com/show/18734/sa ... -upgrade/3

Thunderbolt 3 980Work2TB
Samsung 980 Pro 2TB SSD
All cache and backup storage required by FCPX and/or Davinchi Resolve goes here., Never backed up.
Temporary projects copied in from elsewhere as “inspiration”, “support” or “Quick access” material for main projects. Could be poly or specific sound, logo, photos or animation projects, that should be readable at up to 2.5 GByte second instead of the average 100-120 Megabyte/second from the main NAS. Content fluctuates wildly. Copies between the 980Work2TB and 980Pro2TB typically are executed at average speeds of around 2.5 GByte/sec for chunks of, let’s say, 250 GByte of mixed material (notes, video, photos etc).

Modern macOS is capable of “overlapped I/O”, which means that the “system” can write data to one media and at the same time read data from another media “in parallel”. Not as effective, if both source - e.g. project video - and target - e.g. cache, render - is on the same physical media). Hence the split of project media and cache storage into two drives.

Disk reviewed here (one of several reviews with similar results): https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sa ... ssd-review
Sustained sequential write: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sa ... d-review/4

Thunderbolt 4 990Work4TB
Samsung 990 Pro 4TB SSD
Temporary storage of various forms, that are deemed valuable.
During travel becomes a temporary, single main storage, project and work drive.

Disk reviewed here (one of several reviews with similar results): https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sa ... ssd-review
Sustained sequential write: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sa ... d-review/2


USB C 10 GBit 4TB SSD
USB-C 10 GBit Samsung T7 Shield 4TB
Temporary backup drive during travel. Otherwise a general purpose media drive (for example iPhone 15 Pro recordings).

Disk reviewed here (one of several reviews with similar results): https://www.anandtech.com/show/18734/sa ... ty-upgrade
Sustained sequential write: https://www.anandtech.com/show/18734/sa ... -upgrade/3

Other drives, not in constant use based on Samsung 970 Pro 1TB Thunderbolt SSD’s, Samsung 970 Evo 2 TB SSD (inside powered USB-C hub as iPhone recording media), several Crucial MX500 SATA 2 TB disk as Atomos media for ProRES RAW 12-bit 5.9k use. Etc.

General note
Maximum speeds are limited by Thunderbolt 4 or 3 and USB 4 or 3 capabilities (except for writes).
Note the behaviour for “Sustained write performance”, where some SSD’s may even become slower, than rotating rust HDD drives for writing large amounts of data. The ONLY SSD’s I have (two), that can handle write of media from zero to full retaining top speeds all the way are my Samsung 970 Pro 1TB drives (old hardware design, but allows full write speed under all conditions without exception. Expensive. Max capacity 1TB. Some SSD’s designed for enterprise use have this capability too.

Important
All media was paid for by my own money, chosen for my specific use cases, and certainly not influenced by other parties. There are several SSD manufacturers with a very good reputation delivering products with solid performances. My choice was also based on local availability (nearly always day-to-day) and the quality of my local retailers (never support problems) and local price (in the lower 25% of the spectrum). ALL qualities matter to me, and choice is highly personal. As always: YMMV.

Yet another thread, but briefly, how does Apple's Motion compare to Fusion? (Is it FCP vs DaVinci Resolve, or are they closer in capabilities?)

Someone else might be better placed to answer this as I've only ever used Motion which is more than enough for my needs. Like a lot of Apple software, Motion is very intuitive to use once you get your head around the basics but it is certainly far from simple.

By reputation, Fusion is extremely powerful but also complex and people here (Uli I think among others) suggest it is better on a Windows desktop than on a Mac, even these very powerful silicon Macs that can handle most of what is thrown at them for basic color grading.

@Kurt
Thanks for chiming in, I think that's very valuable information for Marty, who will be on the road doing docs as I understand him. You seem to be very well organized and I have nothing to add there.

@Marty
From Kurt's suggestions it should be very clear (even if you don't go for another camera than an iPhone right now) that spending doesn't stop with buying the computer. Rather skimp on GPU cores than storage. The best model for you is not necessarily the best one for Apple shareholders

@Michael
Maybe you have a few examples for Marty to show him what can be done in Apple's Motion?

Marty, you wrote:
"Short answer, doing field journalism and color grading aren't compatible."

I like that one. Nevertheless, shoot Apple log on the iPhone, but use RCM in DR. It'll look nice from the start, but it'll avoid most of the 'enhancements' Apple likes to do to your footage and give you some leeway regarding exposure correction in post. That is an option that you will value even if you don't have the time for serious grading.

And then:
"MAYBE one of the reason that so many people's Sony a7S iii overheat after 30 minutes if because they are shooting H.265? Or maybe it is the All-Intra that is doing it?"

Or maybe they forgot to flip the screen to the side and set the right option in the menus?
And then, it should be either streaming or recording, not both at once. That overheats!

My A7IV, which is very similar, doesn't overheat in 28 degrees Celsius air temperature when recording HEVC. But, of course, I don't leave a camera with a black body on a tripod in the sun. I'd rather do what some former students of mine did for a Red when filming for Audi on a salt lake. They put it under a reflective umbrella, since cold packs are not a good idea on a camera (in any other place, maybe they would have stayed dry on a salt lake).

I hear the term "data rate" a lot in this thread. (Pardon the newbie question.)

Have already decided to always shoot in 10-bit, but I guess that is "Bit Depth"?

Yes, that's bit depth. Please note, that 10 bit is not 25% more than 8, but 300% more. For digital reasons

So how does one choose a higher "Bit Rate"?

Is that a function of the CODEC, or a function of the camera settings?

How would I choose a higher "Bit Rate" on a Sony a7S iii?

Sony is doing it really well: they tell you in the menus.

And how would I choose a higher "Bit Rate" on an iPhone 15 Pro Max?

ProRes has a pretty much fixed bit rate, you only choose the quality level, like ProRes 422 LT when storage is getting tight or ProRes 422 HQ if you need maximum quality.

For HEVC on the iPhone contact me by PM, since the secret software with the small, elite user group allows you all choices. Kurt knows it too.

@Michael
Maybe you have a few examples for Marty to show him what can be done in Apple's Motion?

I'm just an occasional dabbler. Better to let a re`l expert demo what's possible. The following link is to an intro to Motion by Mark Spencer of Ripple Training.

What about shooting with: XAVC S-I 4K

It is an alternative but the inter-frame version is likely to give you a slightly better overall quality for most types of footage. Regardless, the difference will be minimal.

Bit-Rate is not the same as Bit-depth, right?

How do I know what the Bit-Rate is?

Bit rate is the number of bits per second. Bit-depth describes how many possible levels your footage can have. I would not bother with 8-bit, use 10-bit.

When you say H.265 is "superior" to ProRes, what do you mean?

H.265 uses more advanced comression techniques, ProRes is rather basic.
It is not superior in ease of editing, it is quite similar if we compare apples to apples, that is comparing H.265 all-intra with ProRes. H.265 inter-frame is going to require a lot more processing power.

Does Sony offe rthat in prosumer mirrorless camera? H.265 + All-Intra.

I think the all-intra is available in some models. You would have to check the specs and look for" all-intra" or "-i" or something similar.

So if I take your advice and shoot in H.264, 10-bit, 422, and my laptop was lagging during editing, then I could transcode to ProRes and NOT lose any quality?

I suspect you mean H.265 instead of H.264.
Any reencoding will introduce some quality loss but assuming you use the highest bitrate then converting to ProRes will not significantly cause any quality loss.

IIRC, the A7SIII is offering all-I, just like my A7IV.
On a modern Mac, you won't experience any difference in editing, since both are decoded by hardware.
But inter-frame (aka GOP) will save space without any loss in image quality for natural images.